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	<title>Comments for SAND &amp; DUST</title>
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	<description>Climate change, civilisation, the Sahara</description>
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		<title>Comment on Foreign friends by nickbrooks</title>
		<link>http://nickbrooks.wordpress.com/2009/02/18/foreign-friends/#comment-847</link>
		<dc:creator>nickbrooks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 12:33:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nickbrooks.wordpress.com/?p=187#comment-847</guid>
		<description>Moroccan

I have a lot of sympathy with your position. My own personal prejudices make me deeply suspicious of the concept of the nation state and all the arguments designed to legitimize political models based on nation states, national borders and national governments. 

Nonetheless, I don&#039;t expect the world to embark on a programme of happy cooperative stateless anarchy any time soon. I also suspect that it&#039;s more realistic to push for the long-promised referendum than to demand that the Moroccan king is stripped of his powers. Don&#039;t get me wrong - I&#039;d approve of your solution but I think it&#039;s unlikely in the foreseeable future (maybe my solution is too, but there you go). At least there is an international legal framework for the referendum and for independence resulting from decolonisation. 

Also we should remember that the Polisario, whatever it&#039;s democratic deficit, is not a formal monarchical system, and there is, at least in principle, more potential there for the development of a truly open democracy than there is under a system in which a monarch rules absolutely under a self-declared &quot;divine right&quot;. I think it&#039;s entirely possible that a Sahrawi state in Western Sahara would work reasonably well (as long as it&#039;s neighbours were kept in check). 

To ask that the Sahrawi in the camps go and live under occupation and work for reform within the system is to ask them to voluntarily put themselves in the way of harassment, marginalisation, torture and possibly death. I can&#039;t believe that any transition to a republican model in Moroccan would be smooth - I&#039;m sure a significant amount of blood would be spilled in the process. Now this is a matter for the Moroccans, and I&#039;d say it&#039;s probably unreasonable to expect the Sahrawi to sacrifice themselves for the sake of changing the nature of the Moroccan government. If the Sahrawi did engage with political change in Morocco along these lines they&#039;d soon end up as scapegoats and results could be very ugly indeed. In any case it&#039;s a decision for them. 

Finally, there does seem to be genuine and widespread support among the Sahrawi for an independent state in the entire territory of Western Sahara. So as far as &quot;the people&quot; are concerned in this instance, the establishment of such a state, internationally recognised, would conform with their wishes. 

In the long run I&#039;d be happy with the abolition of borders and a real devolution of power to people rather than governments (and not just in the Maghreb). But I think this is a bigger issue, and a very long-term one. In the meantime the Sahrawi have suffered long enough.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Moroccan</p>
<p>I have a lot of sympathy with your position. My own personal prejudices make me deeply suspicious of the concept of the nation state and all the arguments designed to legitimize political models based on nation states, national borders and national governments. </p>
<p>Nonetheless, I don&#8217;t expect the world to embark on a programme of happy cooperative stateless anarchy any time soon. I also suspect that it&#8217;s more realistic to push for the long-promised referendum than to demand that the Moroccan king is stripped of his powers. Don&#8217;t get me wrong &#8211; I&#8217;d approve of your solution but I think it&#8217;s unlikely in the foreseeable future (maybe my solution is too, but there you go). At least there is an international legal framework for the referendum and for independence resulting from decolonisation. </p>
<p>Also we should remember that the Polisario, whatever it&#8217;s democratic deficit, is not a formal monarchical system, and there is, at least in principle, more potential there for the development of a truly open democracy than there is under a system in which a monarch rules absolutely under a self-declared &#8220;divine right&#8221;. I think it&#8217;s entirely possible that a Sahrawi state in Western Sahara would work reasonably well (as long as it&#8217;s neighbours were kept in check). </p>
<p>To ask that the Sahrawi in the camps go and live under occupation and work for reform within the system is to ask them to voluntarily put themselves in the way of harassment, marginalisation, torture and possibly death. I can&#8217;t believe that any transition to a republican model in Moroccan would be smooth &#8211; I&#8217;m sure a significant amount of blood would be spilled in the process. Now this is a matter for the Moroccans, and I&#8217;d say it&#8217;s probably unreasonable to expect the Sahrawi to sacrifice themselves for the sake of changing the nature of the Moroccan government. If the Sahrawi did engage with political change in Morocco along these lines they&#8217;d soon end up as scapegoats and results could be very ugly indeed. In any case it&#8217;s a decision for them. </p>
<p>Finally, there does seem to be genuine and widespread support among the Sahrawi for an independent state in the entire territory of Western Sahara. So as far as &#8220;the people&#8221; are concerned in this instance, the establishment of such a state, internationally recognised, would conform with their wishes. </p>
<p>In the long run I&#8217;d be happy with the abolition of borders and a real devolution of power to people rather than governments (and not just in the Maghreb). But I think this is a bigger issue, and a very long-term one. In the meantime the Sahrawi have suffered long enough.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Touching a nerve: a case study in propaganda by nickbrooks</title>
		<link>http://nickbrooks.wordpress.com/2008/12/12/touching-a-nerve/#comment-846</link>
		<dc:creator>nickbrooks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 17:08:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nickbrooks.wordpress.com/?p=135#comment-846</guid>
		<description>TG

Thanks for yet another fine example of Moroccan propaganda masquerading as an article by an independent foreign observer. All the usual tells are there indicating a Moroccan origin - the good but not quite native English, the use of the phrase &quot;so-called&quot; before &quot;Polisario&quot;, the long list of assertions with no supporting citations, the content that reflects precisely the Moroccan position, and so on. If Terry Batcher is indeed an independent analyst (and not, as I am pretty certain, one of your alter egos), where is he based? Is he attached to an institution (e.g. university, policy think-tank)? Why have we never heard him commenting on the Western Sahara before? Why has he been so sloppy as to fail to include citations and back up his assertions with examples, links to source materials and other supporting evidence? Good try, but I don&#039;t think you&#039;re fooling anyone by writing your usual and sticking a dodgy pseudonym on it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>TG</p>
<p>Thanks for yet another fine example of Moroccan propaganda masquerading as an article by an independent foreign observer. All the usual tells are there indicating a Moroccan origin &#8211; the good but not quite native English, the use of the phrase &#8220;so-called&#8221; before &#8220;Polisario&#8221;, the long list of assertions with no supporting citations, the content that reflects precisely the Moroccan position, and so on. If Terry Batcher is indeed an independent analyst (and not, as I am pretty certain, one of your alter egos), where is he based? Is he attached to an institution (e.g. university, policy think-tank)? Why have we never heard him commenting on the Western Sahara before? Why has he been so sloppy as to fail to include citations and back up his assertions with examples, links to source materials and other supporting evidence? Good try, but I don&#8217;t think you&#8217;re fooling anyone by writing your usual and sticking a dodgy pseudonym on it.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Touching a nerve: a case study in propaganda by gazoulit Taoufiq</title>
		<link>http://nickbrooks.wordpress.com/2008/12/12/touching-a-nerve/#comment-844</link>
		<dc:creator>gazoulit Taoufiq</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Sep 2009 11:19:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nickbrooks.wordpress.com/?p=135#comment-844</guid>
		<description>Is it a shift in the Algerian policy on the Western Sahara issue?&quot;


 By :  Terry Batcher


The observers who are following closely the Sahara issue   have expressed their surprise to the content of the recent letter sent by the Algerian president bouteflika to the leader of Polisario front or the president of the so-called sahraoui state following the end of Ramadan and the celebration of  Al - Aid 

  The content of a such a short letter is seen by observers as a change of tactics or possibly a strategy of the Algerian president, I fact this is almost the first time that the Algerian president avoided to mention terms and sentences such as: the right of Sahraoui people for a self-determination, the western Sahara colonized by Morocco, the Algerian position to support the United Nations attempts to decolonize Western Sahara.

 Such a substantial change in the spirit of the short letter of Mr Bouteflika has created an argument within observers and even policy makers in the North African countries.    Although it is not advisable to come to any conclusion whether Algeria is about to change its foreign policy towards the Sahara conflict or not, it is worth mentioning  that Algeria was and still is under a lot of pressure from the international community to moderate its position and pave the way to the UN security council , and the UN general secretary’s envoy to the area to create a positive atmosphere aiming at searching a political settlement based in principle on the Moroccan proposal to grant sahraouis a substantial autonomy . This pressure comes as result of the UN officials’ decision to give a political solution a chance, as the war and different attempts to organize referenda have failed for various reasons. 

 Even if the idea of autonomy is not new, Morocco proposed during 2007 a project for 
 a substantial autonomy of Western Sahara. The project consists of giving Western Sahara 
  a Large autonomy within Moroccan sovereignty. Sahraouis are expected to be offered a                
 Parliament with power over local policies in terms of management and decision in the Sahara region; cabinet ministries, and their own judiciary, but the Moroccan flag would fly over the territory, the currency and stamps would remain Moroccans. The plan of a substantial autonomy transfers competences and creates local institutions legislative and executive within the framework of Moroccan sovereignty .Again autonomy is seen by experts in international law as a very advanced form of self determination. 

 It becomes obvious that the international community wants to see the end of this conflict very soon , throughout the last three decades or so Polisario front lead a war against the Moroccan army which led to a ceasefire, and Polisario gained nothing out of this guerrilla war, then the UN former envoy  James baker came up with two suggestions to organize referendum which faced a refusal by Algeria , Polisario and even Morocco , this failure led to the resignation of the American diplomat , and the conclusion that such referendum is difficult to organize if not impossible .
  Although both Algeria and Polisario  front refused the Moroccan proposal it was in no doubt supported by a large number of countries all over the world, among others the USA ,France, and Spain which openly congratulated Morocco for  proposing  and submitting a courageous and  project entitled &quot;Moroccan initiative for Negotiating an Autonomy Statute for the Sahara region&quot; whereas the Polisario proposal as the UN&#039;s secretary general  former personal envoy for Sahara, Peter Van Walsum described it  «it is consistent With Polisario well known positions&quot; he added that self- determination does not have to mean independence. There are many examples in the world where concerned populations chose, following referendum consultations or other, autonomy or total integration».
It is too early to even predict that there is a shift in the Algerian foreign policy towards the Sahara dispute, but undoubtedly there is a change of political vocabulary , which makes some observers see  President Bouteflica’s letter as a start for a new Algerian outlook to the Sahara conflict, particularly that the Algerian diplomacy have lost recently a number of diplomatic battles in terms of W Sahara conflict  and the UN officials especially the former general secretary Kofi Anan mentioned in an unprecedented way the extent of the involvement of Algeria not only in the conflict but also in the decision making on behalf of polisario .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is it a shift in the Algerian policy on the Western Sahara issue?&#8221;</p>
<p> By :  Terry Batcher</p>
<p>The observers who are following closely the Sahara issue   have expressed their surprise to the content of the recent letter sent by the Algerian president bouteflika to the leader of Polisario front or the president of the so-called sahraoui state following the end of Ramadan and the celebration of  Al &#8211; Aid </p>
<p>  The content of a such a short letter is seen by observers as a change of tactics or possibly a strategy of the Algerian president, I fact this is almost the first time that the Algerian president avoided to mention terms and sentences such as: the right of Sahraoui people for a self-determination, the western Sahara colonized by Morocco, the Algerian position to support the United Nations attempts to decolonize Western Sahara.</p>
<p> Such a substantial change in the spirit of the short letter of Mr Bouteflika has created an argument within observers and even policy makers in the North African countries.    Although it is not advisable to come to any conclusion whether Algeria is about to change its foreign policy towards the Sahara conflict or not, it is worth mentioning  that Algeria was and still is under a lot of pressure from the international community to moderate its position and pave the way to the UN security council , and the UN general secretary’s envoy to the area to create a positive atmosphere aiming at searching a political settlement based in principle on the Moroccan proposal to grant sahraouis a substantial autonomy . This pressure comes as result of the UN officials’ decision to give a political solution a chance, as the war and different attempts to organize referenda have failed for various reasons. </p>
<p> Even if the idea of autonomy is not new, Morocco proposed during 2007 a project for<br />
 a substantial autonomy of Western Sahara. The project consists of giving Western Sahara<br />
  a Large autonomy within Moroccan sovereignty. Sahraouis are expected to be offered a<br />
 Parliament with power over local policies in terms of management and decision in the Sahara region; cabinet ministries, and their own judiciary, but the Moroccan flag would fly over the territory, the currency and stamps would remain Moroccans. The plan of a substantial autonomy transfers competences and creates local institutions legislative and executive within the framework of Moroccan sovereignty .Again autonomy is seen by experts in international law as a very advanced form of self determination. </p>
<p> It becomes obvious that the international community wants to see the end of this conflict very soon , throughout the last three decades or so Polisario front lead a war against the Moroccan army which led to a ceasefire, and Polisario gained nothing out of this guerrilla war, then the UN former envoy  James baker came up with two suggestions to organize referendum which faced a refusal by Algeria , Polisario and even Morocco , this failure led to the resignation of the American diplomat , and the conclusion that such referendum is difficult to organize if not impossible .<br />
  Although both Algeria and Polisario  front refused the Moroccan proposal it was in no doubt supported by a large number of countries all over the world, among others the USA ,France, and Spain which openly congratulated Morocco for  proposing  and submitting a courageous and  project entitled &#8220;Moroccan initiative for Negotiating an Autonomy Statute for the Sahara region&#8221; whereas the Polisario proposal as the UN&#8217;s secretary general  former personal envoy for Sahara, Peter Van Walsum described it  «it is consistent With Polisario well known positions&#8221; he added that self- determination does not have to mean independence. There are many examples in the world where concerned populations chose, following referendum consultations or other, autonomy or total integration».<br />
It is too early to even predict that there is a shift in the Algerian foreign policy towards the Sahara dispute, but undoubtedly there is a change of political vocabulary , which makes some observers see  President Bouteflica’s letter as a start for a new Algerian outlook to the Sahara conflict, particularly that the Algerian diplomacy have lost recently a number of diplomatic battles in terms of W Sahara conflict  and the UN officials especially the former general secretary Kofi Anan mentioned in an unprecedented way the extent of the involvement of Algeria not only in the conflict but also in the decision making on behalf of polisario .</p>
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		<title>Comment on Foreign friends by Moroccan</title>
		<link>http://nickbrooks.wordpress.com/2009/02/18/foreign-friends/#comment-831</link>
		<dc:creator>Moroccan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Jul 2009 22:31:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nickbrooks.wordpress.com/?p=187#comment-831</guid>
		<description>Nick,
you make some valid point. I have my reservations with the autocratic Moroccan  Menarche system . I have chosen  to not be part of a Moroccan system that subjugate it citizen to all kind of humiliations from hand kissing to stockpiling away the phosphate money in foreign banks while the Moroccan people are starving and begging in Europe. 
as far as I am concern, being Moroccan at this point means being a  Berber with a  History in north Africa  that is much older than that of all the King of Morocco, older than Spain, the Polisario or Algeria. 
	Careful what you which for because after Morocco received it independence from France, these so called Independence leaders allied themselves with the King and the colonizing powers to split the pie and they left the people wondering what would it be like if they didn&#039;t kick The French out of the country.
Look at the History! do we really have to put the Inhabitant of north Africa through further divisions and mini-kings. 
The solution I propose is for the Sahrawi&#039;s in the camps to demand in the negotiations that the Moroccan constitution changes, the king get stripped of all his powers and make him a ceremonial figure like that of England and Spain, before they can accept to be part of Morocco.
If they achieve this condition, they willfree the Sahrawis, the population of Morocco and North Africa</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nick,<br />
you make some valid point. I have my reservations with the autocratic Moroccan  Menarche system . I have chosen  to not be part of a Moroccan system that subjugate it citizen to all kind of humiliations from hand kissing to stockpiling away the phosphate money in foreign banks while the Moroccan people are starving and begging in Europe.<br />
as far as I am concern, being Moroccan at this point means being a  Berber with a  History in north Africa  that is much older than that of all the King of Morocco, older than Spain, the Polisario or Algeria.<br />
	Careful what you which for because after Morocco received it independence from France, these so called Independence leaders allied themselves with the King and the colonizing powers to split the pie and they left the people wondering what would it be like if they didn&#8217;t kick The French out of the country.<br />
Look at the History! do we really have to put the Inhabitant of north Africa through further divisions and mini-kings.<br />
The solution I propose is for the Sahrawi&#8217;s in the camps to demand in the negotiations that the Moroccan constitution changes, the king get stripped of all his powers and make him a ceremonial figure like that of England and Spain, before they can accept to be part of Morocco.<br />
If they achieve this condition, they willfree the Sahrawis, the population of Morocco and North Africa</p>
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		<title>Comment on Visit Western Sahara by Vidi: The Past &#171; Archaeoastronomy</title>
		<link>http://nickbrooks.wordpress.com/2009/07/04/visit-western-sahara/#comment-816</link>
		<dc:creator>Vidi: The Past &#171; Archaeoastronomy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 17:21:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nickbrooks.wordpress.com/?p=214#comment-816</guid>
		<description>[...] Visit Western Sahara SAND AND DUST There&#8217;s an opportunity to dig where no-one has dug before. I know all archaeology is supposed to be like that, but I did once spend two weeks digging a barn and finding nothing, till the local Museum admitted they&#8217;d lost the paperwork and umm&#8230; actually they remembered digging that. However, the Western Sahara is particularly undug and it looks like a great opportunity. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Visit Western Sahara SAND AND DUST There&#8217;s an opportunity to dig where no-one has dug before. I know all archaeology is supposed to be like that, but I did once spend two weeks digging a barn and finding nothing, till the local Museum admitted they&#8217;d lost the paperwork and umm&#8230; actually they remembered digging that. However, the Western Sahara is particularly undug and it looks like a great opportunity. [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Foreign friends by nickbrooks</title>
		<link>http://nickbrooks.wordpress.com/2009/02/18/foreign-friends/#comment-812</link>
		<dc:creator>nickbrooks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Jun 2009 08:54:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nickbrooks.wordpress.com/?p=187#comment-812</guid>
		<description>HI Jan. You seem to have been influenced by Ahmed Salem&#039;s casting of the Western Sahara conflict as a beauty contest between Morocco and the Polisario. I&#039;m not here to act as an apologist for the Polisario - they are not perfect (shock horror). Perhaps you think that the Sahrawi do not deserve independence because their leadership exhibits some shortcomings. I don&#039;t - for me the issue is one of justice rather than democratic credentials. I&#039;ve spent a lot of time in the region, in the camps, and cooperating with the Polisario on a logistical basis for my work. It seems to me that they have done a pretty good job despite any shortcomings (and a shaky start), given that they&#039;ve been operating in exile, and in a context of conflict, with an existential threat hanging over their head. I wouldn&#039;t award them any prizes for democracy, but they run a reasonably show - especially by the standards of the region. 

I&#039;m not sure if you are contrasting the Polisario unfavourably with the Moroccan state - perhaps you think an unelected Monarchy that calls all shots and approves political appointments is more democratic than a de facto one-party state. I wouldn&#039;t really want to call it on that front. President Abdellaziz may not look as if he&#039;s going to be ejected in a free election any time soon, but neither does Hassan II. Having said that, I suspect that democracy might stand a better chance in an independent Western Sahara than in a Morocco that retains its Monarchy.

I&#039;ve never really understood the arguments against independence based on the politics of the Polisario as compared to those of the Moroccan state, given the  democratic deficit on both sides - I assume this is your point. 

On the &quot;evolution&quot; of the Polisario, by all accounts they did some pretty nasty things in the past, in their more ideologically-driven days, and have actually improved in terms of human rights. 

You refer to my &quot;comments on Morocco&quot; - it is my intention to comment on Western Sahara, not Morocco per se. You won&#039;t find many (or any) posts on my blog analysing the political situation in the Kingdom at large. I&#039;ll leave that to the likes of Maghreb Politics Review.

I&#039;ll be interested to hear specific examples of how the Polisario have &quot;lost allegiance to the truth&quot;. All sides in a conflict engage in propaganda, but from where I&#039;m standing most of that appears to come from the Moroccan side. I&#039;d welcome examples of Polisario propaganda based on pure fabrication, in the name of balance. Embarrassingly I generally can&#039;t find any - just earnest assertions of the the right of the Sahrawi to real self-determination and claims of Moroccan brutality that might be over-egged, but are based on reality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>HI Jan. You seem to have been influenced by Ahmed Salem&#8217;s casting of the Western Sahara conflict as a beauty contest between Morocco and the Polisario. I&#8217;m not here to act as an apologist for the Polisario &#8211; they are not perfect (shock horror). Perhaps you think that the Sahrawi do not deserve independence because their leadership exhibits some shortcomings. I don&#8217;t &#8211; for me the issue is one of justice rather than democratic credentials. I&#8217;ve spent a lot of time in the region, in the camps, and cooperating with the Polisario on a logistical basis for my work. It seems to me that they have done a pretty good job despite any shortcomings (and a shaky start), given that they&#8217;ve been operating in exile, and in a context of conflict, with an existential threat hanging over their head. I wouldn&#8217;t award them any prizes for democracy, but they run a reasonably show &#8211; especially by the standards of the region. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure if you are contrasting the Polisario unfavourably with the Moroccan state &#8211; perhaps you think an unelected Monarchy that calls all shots and approves political appointments is more democratic than a de facto one-party state. I wouldn&#8217;t really want to call it on that front. President Abdellaziz may not look as if he&#8217;s going to be ejected in a free election any time soon, but neither does Hassan II. Having said that, I suspect that democracy might stand a better chance in an independent Western Sahara than in a Morocco that retains its Monarchy.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve never really understood the arguments against independence based on the politics of the Polisario as compared to those of the Moroccan state, given the  democratic deficit on both sides &#8211; I assume this is your point. </p>
<p>On the &#8220;evolution&#8221; of the Polisario, by all accounts they did some pretty nasty things in the past, in their more ideologically-driven days, and have actually improved in terms of human rights. </p>
<p>You refer to my &#8220;comments on Morocco&#8221; &#8211; it is my intention to comment on Western Sahara, not Morocco per se. You won&#8217;t find many (or any) posts on my blog analysing the political situation in the Kingdom at large. I&#8217;ll leave that to the likes of Maghreb Politics Review.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll be interested to hear specific examples of how the Polisario have &#8220;lost allegiance to the truth&#8221;. All sides in a conflict engage in propaganda, but from where I&#8217;m standing most of that appears to come from the Moroccan side. I&#8217;d welcome examples of Polisario propaganda based on pure fabrication, in the name of balance. Embarrassingly I generally can&#8217;t find any &#8211; just earnest assertions of the the right of the Sahrawi to real self-determination and claims of Moroccan brutality that might be over-egged, but are based on reality.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Foreign friends by Jan Forbes</title>
		<link>http://nickbrooks.wordpress.com/2009/02/18/foreign-friends/#comment-811</link>
		<dc:creator>Jan Forbes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Jun 2009 23:22:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nickbrooks.wordpress.com/?p=187#comment-811</guid>
		<description>Hi Nick, I haven&#039;t read all your blog here just the begining. I came across it earlier when looking for a balanced view and saw signs of that here and read other stuff there. My comment is that although I can understand where you&#039;re coming from in your comments on Morocco, I&#039;m afraid I agree with the Moroccan statement about the Polisario. They lack a democratic structure and from what I&#039;ve seen of their recent behaviour here in Australia they are so blindly committed to furthering their cause for independence that they have lost allegiance to the truth. They are not the liberation movement of student idealists that they once were. It seems to me that the fight for control of rich resources may have bred corruption on both sides of the fence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Nick, I haven&#8217;t read all your blog here just the begining. I came across it earlier when looking for a balanced view and saw signs of that here and read other stuff there. My comment is that although I can understand where you&#8217;re coming from in your comments on Morocco, I&#8217;m afraid I agree with the Moroccan statement about the Polisario. They lack a democratic structure and from what I&#8217;ve seen of their recent behaviour here in Australia they are so blindly committed to furthering their cause for independence that they have lost allegiance to the truth. They are not the liberation movement of student idealists that they once were. It seems to me that the fight for control of rich resources may have bred corruption on both sides of the fence.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Touching a nerve: a case study in propaganda by nickbrooks</title>
		<link>http://nickbrooks.wordpress.com/2008/12/12/touching-a-nerve/#comment-796</link>
		<dc:creator>nickbrooks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 13:37:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nickbrooks.wordpress.com/?p=135#comment-796</guid>
		<description>TG, I&#039;d be very interested to see a copy of this report. Perhaps you could forward one to me, or at least send me a link to where it can be downloaded. I&#039;m aware that there are a number of &quot;NGOs&quot; that support the Moroccan position, and I presume this is one of them. I&#039;d be interested to see if this was based on extensive travel and time spent within the camps, or whether this is another claim made a distance. I&#039;ve spent a fair bit of time in the camps and conditions are basic to say the least, but I have seen no evidence of the horrific detention centres that pro-Moroccan propagandists constantly harp on about. 

The main human rights violations are associated with the displacement of the Sahrawi resulting from Morocco&#039;s invasion, and with the actions of the occupying Moroccan authorities, which routinely repress, beat and detain (and indeed torture) Sahrawi who would like to see the country independent. As usual, the defenders of Morocco&#039;s invasion are inverting the truth and turning black into white in their standard orwellian manner. Morocco has caused a problem by flouting international law and UN resolutions and obstructing a UN-sanctioned peace process, and now blames everybody else for the problem. I&#039;m sorry, but it wont&#039; wash. 

Sure the Algerians use the situation and the refugees for political leverage, but Morocco similarly uses them as pawns for its own purposes by misrepresenting their situation. There is not total freedom of movement between the camps and Algeria by any stretch of the imagination, but Sahrawi teenagers are schooled in Algeria and other countries, and the people in the camps (at least some of them - I can&#039;t say what proportion) are free to move across the border into Mauritania and Western Sahara itself. There is a lot of traffic in and out of the camps. I see this all the time when I&#039;m in the region. So, there is not total freedom of movement into Algeria, but neither is there &quot;warehousing&quot; to anything like the extent you claim.  

You want the refugees to be assimilated into Algerian society so that the Sahrawi nation-in-exile ceases to exist. That&#039;s understandable, as Morocco sure as hell doesn&#039;t want anything between 100,000 and 200,000 independence-minded refugees returning to live in a Western Sahara that Morocco claims as part of its territory. 

You are very concerned to tell me about the situation in places I have visited myself. How much time have you spent in the camps, in northern Maurtiania or in the Polisario-controlled areas of Western Sahara yourself? Might the answer be &quot;none at all&quot;? Might you have no first-hand experience whatsoever of what conditions are like in areas you claim to speak about with authority?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>TG, I&#8217;d be very interested to see a copy of this report. Perhaps you could forward one to me, or at least send me a link to where it can be downloaded. I&#8217;m aware that there are a number of &#8220;NGOs&#8221; that support the Moroccan position, and I presume this is one of them. I&#8217;d be interested to see if this was based on extensive travel and time spent within the camps, or whether this is another claim made a distance. I&#8217;ve spent a fair bit of time in the camps and conditions are basic to say the least, but I have seen no evidence of the horrific detention centres that pro-Moroccan propagandists constantly harp on about. </p>
<p>The main human rights violations are associated with the displacement of the Sahrawi resulting from Morocco&#8217;s invasion, and with the actions of the occupying Moroccan authorities, which routinely repress, beat and detain (and indeed torture) Sahrawi who would like to see the country independent. As usual, the defenders of Morocco&#8217;s invasion are inverting the truth and turning black into white in their standard orwellian manner. Morocco has caused a problem by flouting international law and UN resolutions and obstructing a UN-sanctioned peace process, and now blames everybody else for the problem. I&#8217;m sorry, but it wont&#8217; wash. </p>
<p>Sure the Algerians use the situation and the refugees for political leverage, but Morocco similarly uses them as pawns for its own purposes by misrepresenting their situation. There is not total freedom of movement between the camps and Algeria by any stretch of the imagination, but Sahrawi teenagers are schooled in Algeria and other countries, and the people in the camps (at least some of them &#8211; I can&#8217;t say what proportion) are free to move across the border into Mauritania and Western Sahara itself. There is a lot of traffic in and out of the camps. I see this all the time when I&#8217;m in the region. So, there is not total freedom of movement into Algeria, but neither is there &#8220;warehousing&#8221; to anything like the extent you claim.  </p>
<p>You want the refugees to be assimilated into Algerian society so that the Sahrawi nation-in-exile ceases to exist. That&#8217;s understandable, as Morocco sure as hell doesn&#8217;t want anything between 100,000 and 200,000 independence-minded refugees returning to live in a Western Sahara that Morocco claims as part of its territory. </p>
<p>You are very concerned to tell me about the situation in places I have visited myself. How much time have you spent in the camps, in northern Maurtiania or in the Polisario-controlled areas of Western Sahara yourself? Might the answer be &#8220;none at all&#8221;? Might you have no first-hand experience whatsoever of what conditions are like in areas you claim to speak about with authority?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Touching a nerve: a case study in propaganda by gazoulit Taoufiq</title>
		<link>http://nickbrooks.wordpress.com/2008/12/12/touching-a-nerve/#comment-795</link>
		<dc:creator>gazoulit Taoufiq</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 13:10:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nickbrooks.wordpress.com/?p=135#comment-795</guid>
		<description>MR BROOKS

As you may know that the 11th session, of the United Nations human rights council is taking place in   Geneva under the theme of &quot; Global economic crisis and its impact on migration and development&quot;, with the participation of a number of UN state members in addition to international human rights organizations and various NGO&#039;s.

 In this respect the &quot;internationale democratique du centre&quot; a french speaking NGO which deals with democracy process and human rights practices informed  the UN Human rights council (HRC) of the persistence of denying the sahraoui refugees in the four camps in Tindouf in Southwest of Algeria the basic human rights.

This report handed over by IDC to the UN HRC added that these refugees , which enjoy none of their  social , economic and cultural rights , live in an appalling conditions , deprived of the freedom of movement, the people detained in the said camps are held hostage in an  open-air prison by the leaders of the  polisario front seen as a separist movement, the leaders of the Polisario exploit their state of destitution to claim and embezzle humanitarian aid , the NGO said .

 In this respect the internationale democratique du centre called upon the UN bodies in charge of Human rights and humanitarian issues to help these refugees to enable them to enjoy all rights guaranteed by the international conventions.  It also called on Polisario to abide by bthe UN  security council resolutions in order to enter into a substantive phase of direct negotiations to reach a political solution to the  conflict over  western sahara issue, towards putting an end to the sufferings of the sahraouis in the refugee camps, and make it possible for them to enjoy their rights .

 the  IDC made a pressing call for the UN chief and the HRC to do their best in order to achieve family reunion in both sides , through the autonomy initiative , which set the stage for a diginfied return to the homeland

I thought to share this news about the state of Human rights in Tindouf camps  with you as seen by a European NGO, which in my mind means only that the human rights principle are somehow violated inside the camps, and that the refugees are paying highly the price of the status quo , whereas the Polisario political and military leadershipdo enjoy a good life under circomstances.

 I have to add up one more thing in this respect that is to say iam not discussing the main issue about the future of the Western sahara region future , but iam trying to attract your attention to the fact that several human rights organizations , among others the famous &quot; France liberte&quot; led by the wife of the late french socialist president Francois Mitterand have expressed their concern over the conditions of refugees located in refugee camps in southwest algeria .

 Regardless of the future status of the ongoing Polisario  Moroccan conflict over the Sahara , thousands of mostly civilian population , need  immediate Humanitarian help ; it is the Algerian government responsability to ensure the safety and well being of the Sahraoui refugees in its own soil, under international law , the Algerian government refusal to grant the camps inhabitants the right of movement mounts to refugee warehousing for political leverage. international refugee laws are clear: since Tindouf is on Algerian soil, the thousands of refugees camped in the region should be allowed to choose to stay put in the camps , move to other parts of Algeria or apply to the United Nations UNHCR to move to other countries that would accept them .
 As long as you claim that the main aim of this blog is to defend the right of sahraouis , why don&#039;t you start by tackling the Human rights issue which is in my mind very close to the heart of Europeans, as it seems to be a priority , while the conflict is defenitely going to take a long time before we can expect any final settlement .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MR BROOKS</p>
<p>As you may know that the 11th session, of the United Nations human rights council is taking place in   Geneva under the theme of &#8221; Global economic crisis and its impact on migration and development&#8221;, with the participation of a number of UN state members in addition to international human rights organizations and various NGO&#8217;s.</p>
<p> In this respect the &#8220;internationale democratique du centre&#8221; a french speaking NGO which deals with democracy process and human rights practices informed  the UN Human rights council (HRC) of the persistence of denying the sahraoui refugees in the four camps in Tindouf in Southwest of Algeria the basic human rights.</p>
<p>This report handed over by IDC to the UN HRC added that these refugees , which enjoy none of their  social , economic and cultural rights , live in an appalling conditions , deprived of the freedom of movement, the people detained in the said camps are held hostage in an  open-air prison by the leaders of the  polisario front seen as a separist movement, the leaders of the Polisario exploit their state of destitution to claim and embezzle humanitarian aid , the NGO said .</p>
<p> In this respect the internationale democratique du centre called upon the UN bodies in charge of Human rights and humanitarian issues to help these refugees to enable them to enjoy all rights guaranteed by the international conventions.  It also called on Polisario to abide by bthe UN  security council resolutions in order to enter into a substantive phase of direct negotiations to reach a political solution to the  conflict over  western sahara issue, towards putting an end to the sufferings of the sahraouis in the refugee camps, and make it possible for them to enjoy their rights .</p>
<p> the  IDC made a pressing call for the UN chief and the HRC to do their best in order to achieve family reunion in both sides , through the autonomy initiative , which set the stage for a diginfied return to the homeland</p>
<p>I thought to share this news about the state of Human rights in Tindouf camps  with you as seen by a European NGO, which in my mind means only that the human rights principle are somehow violated inside the camps, and that the refugees are paying highly the price of the status quo , whereas the Polisario political and military leadershipdo enjoy a good life under circomstances.</p>
<p> I have to add up one more thing in this respect that is to say iam not discussing the main issue about the future of the Western sahara region future , but iam trying to attract your attention to the fact that several human rights organizations , among others the famous &#8221; France liberte&#8221; led by the wife of the late french socialist president Francois Mitterand have expressed their concern over the conditions of refugees located in refugee camps in southwest algeria .</p>
<p> Regardless of the future status of the ongoing Polisario  Moroccan conflict over the Sahara , thousands of mostly civilian population , need  immediate Humanitarian help ; it is the Algerian government responsability to ensure the safety and well being of the Sahraoui refugees in its own soil, under international law , the Algerian government refusal to grant the camps inhabitants the right of movement mounts to refugee warehousing for political leverage. international refugee laws are clear: since Tindouf is on Algerian soil, the thousands of refugees camped in the region should be allowed to choose to stay put in the camps , move to other parts of Algeria or apply to the United Nations UNHCR to move to other countries that would accept them .<br />
 As long as you claim that the main aim of this blog is to defend the right of sahraouis , why don&#8217;t you start by tackling the Human rights issue which is in my mind very close to the heart of Europeans, as it seems to be a priority , while the conflict is defenitely going to take a long time before we can expect any final settlement .</p>
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		<title>Comment on Touching a nerve: a case study in propaganda by nickbrooks</title>
		<link>http://nickbrooks.wordpress.com/2008/12/12/touching-a-nerve/#comment-790</link>
		<dc:creator>nickbrooks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jun 2009 12:19:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nickbrooks.wordpress.com/?p=135#comment-790</guid>
		<description>GT, I agree the WS issue seems to be going nowhere. What is needed is international pressure on one or both sides to force a compromise. Jacob Mundy has been writing about this lately advocating compromise on both sides and emphasising the need for external pressure. I agree with him, although my preference would be for pressure on Morocco to hold a referendum which included full independence as an option. 

I really don&#039;t think the conditions in the camps - poor as they are - are anything near as dismal as the Moroccan camp makes out. HRW did address conditions in the camps in its latest report (see my blog post for the link). It concluded that those who disagreed with the Polisario were marginalised rather than persecuted, and that those wishing to leave and go to Morocco were not actively prevented from doing so, although obviously this isn&#039;t looked on favourably by the leadership and possibly by society at large, and this might have implications for family members left behind. 

Movement is controlled - permission needs to be obtained to leave the camps, which are run as a mini-state. I&#039;m sure the Algerians don&#039;t just want people from the camps wandering freely into and around Algeria either. However, there is a lot of movement in and out of the camps. Many residents of the camps travel to the Polisario-controlled areas of Western Sahara, particularly during wet periods when there is good grazing - some families keep animals there and travel there to enjoy something approaching a traditional lifestyle when they can. I&#039;m sure it&#039;s much easier for some people to leave than it is for others, and that we&#039;re talking about the better off here. However, movement is not restricted to the extent claimed by the anti-Polisario lobby.

Conditions in the camps are hardly ideal - there is malnutrition, and health, water and power facilities are very basic. This is ultimately the result of the conflict and the resulting displacement, precipitated by Morocco&#039;s invasion and partial occupation of Western Sahara. So I think it&#039;s a little bit hypocritical to blame the Polisario or the Algerians for the state of the refugees. Of course Morocco would love to see the refugees simply assimilated into Algeria so that the problem went away. 

I think by the standards of the region freedom of expression and freedom of movement are not particularly bad. How free are people in Morocco to criticise the king? How long will people in Algeria, Tunisia, or many other countries in the Arab world get away with speaking out against their government? I think a lot the criticism of the political regime in the camps from the Moroccan side is very much a case of people in houses made of very thin and fragile glass thinking they can safely get away with hurling rather large rocks. 

At the end of the day, the camps are there because of Morocco&#039;s actions, all the governments of the region have their deep flaws, and all have their own strategic aims (Morocco included, and arguably more than most). Moroccan commentators always try and turn this into a beauty contest between Morocco and the Polisario. One the one hand this is a dangerous game as neither are politically gorgeous. More importantly, what &quot;activists&quot; are interested in is the injustice of the Moroccan invasion and occupation, and the resulting displacement of those in the camps. No-one thinks the Polisario are saints (but neither are they demons) - this isn&#039;t the point. Let&#039;s sort the conflict out equitably and then put pressure on all governments in the region to be more accountable. I&#039;d be delighted to criticise the Polisario as the government of an independent Western Saharan state.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>GT, I agree the WS issue seems to be going nowhere. What is needed is international pressure on one or both sides to force a compromise. Jacob Mundy has been writing about this lately advocating compromise on both sides and emphasising the need for external pressure. I agree with him, although my preference would be for pressure on Morocco to hold a referendum which included full independence as an option. </p>
<p>I really don&#8217;t think the conditions in the camps &#8211; poor as they are &#8211; are anything near as dismal as the Moroccan camp makes out. HRW did address conditions in the camps in its latest report (see my blog post for the link). It concluded that those who disagreed with the Polisario were marginalised rather than persecuted, and that those wishing to leave and go to Morocco were not actively prevented from doing so, although obviously this isn&#8217;t looked on favourably by the leadership and possibly by society at large, and this might have implications for family members left behind. </p>
<p>Movement is controlled &#8211; permission needs to be obtained to leave the camps, which are run as a mini-state. I&#8217;m sure the Algerians don&#8217;t just want people from the camps wandering freely into and around Algeria either. However, there is a lot of movement in and out of the camps. Many residents of the camps travel to the Polisario-controlled areas of Western Sahara, particularly during wet periods when there is good grazing &#8211; some families keep animals there and travel there to enjoy something approaching a traditional lifestyle when they can. I&#8217;m sure it&#8217;s much easier for some people to leave than it is for others, and that we&#8217;re talking about the better off here. However, movement is not restricted to the extent claimed by the anti-Polisario lobby.</p>
<p>Conditions in the camps are hardly ideal &#8211; there is malnutrition, and health, water and power facilities are very basic. This is ultimately the result of the conflict and the resulting displacement, precipitated by Morocco&#8217;s invasion and partial occupation of Western Sahara. So I think it&#8217;s a little bit hypocritical to blame the Polisario or the Algerians for the state of the refugees. Of course Morocco would love to see the refugees simply assimilated into Algeria so that the problem went away. </p>
<p>I think by the standards of the region freedom of expression and freedom of movement are not particularly bad. How free are people in Morocco to criticise the king? How long will people in Algeria, Tunisia, or many other countries in the Arab world get away with speaking out against their government? I think a lot the criticism of the political regime in the camps from the Moroccan side is very much a case of people in houses made of very thin and fragile glass thinking they can safely get away with hurling rather large rocks. </p>
<p>At the end of the day, the camps are there because of Morocco&#8217;s actions, all the governments of the region have their deep flaws, and all have their own strategic aims (Morocco included, and arguably more than most). Moroccan commentators always try and turn this into a beauty contest between Morocco and the Polisario. One the one hand this is a dangerous game as neither are politically gorgeous. More importantly, what &#8220;activists&#8221; are interested in is the injustice of the Moroccan invasion and occupation, and the resulting displacement of those in the camps. No-one thinks the Polisario are saints (but neither are they demons) &#8211; this isn&#8217;t the point. Let&#8217;s sort the conflict out equitably and then put pressure on all governments in the region to be more accountable. I&#8217;d be delighted to criticise the Polisario as the government of an independent Western Saharan state.</p>
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